Join us as we talk with Dr. Shelley Moore and explore with her, her own journey as an educator with a deep commitment to inclusion and together learn about her five guiding conditions for how to build inclusive communities, both inside and outside of classrooms and schools. Based in British Columbia, Canada, Dr. Shelley Moore is a highly sought-after inclusive education researcher, teacher, consultant and storyteller. She has worked with school districts and community organizations around the world. Her research explores how to support teachers to design for all learners in grade level academic classrooms that include students with intellectual disabilities using strength based and responsive approaches.
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Welcome to collab cast.
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Hello. I'm Ruchika Chopra, host of collab cast our collab cast conversations are a resource from the urban collaborative supporting over 100 districts in 29 states across the country to build equitable and inclusive practices. We are here to listen to stories and personal experiences of people in our community, their successes, how they got there, and advice they might share with others who are facing some of the same challenges and opportunities they may have had. Each of our collab cast speakers connect us to the theme of the month that we're looking to explore with you all our urban collaborative members, these themes concern issues that you have told us you are grappling with and want to learn more about this colab cast, we are thrilled to be talking with Dr Shelley Moore and exploring with her why she believes we all continue to still be engaged in conversations with schools, districts, families and communities at Large as to why students with disabilities, and more so students with significant disabilities should be educated in the same classrooms as students without disabilities? In brief, why inclusion? We know that all of us here have been asked this question over and over again. We know that sometimes engaging in this conversation becomes disheartening and many feel burnt out, but we also know that this is important work, and we know we need to keep persevering and bringing people to the place that we engage in conversations around the how. How do we teach all students in the same classroom? How do we ensure that all students in the classroom are challenged to learn and access the content that is being taught. How do we support outcomes that may be different for each student, but are connected to their personal growth and achievement towards their goals? Based in British Columbia, Canada. Dr Shelley Moore is a highly sought after, inclusive education researcher, teacher consultant and storyteller. She has worked with school districts and community organizations around the world. Her research explores how to support teachers to design for all learners in grade level academic classrooms that include students with intellectual disabilities using strength based and responsive approaches. Welcome Shelly and thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. This is so fun. I love podcasts. I am not sure if I love podcasts, but I love doing them and meeting people like you, somebody because, like, I tried to do a podcast, and it's so much more fun being on a podcast than it is to host a podcast. So like, I will always come but man, oh, man, making them is a whole different party. Well, it's a party
Unknown Speaker 3:06
that's a party that you're invited and it's a party that I was told to do. So I am doing it, and I'm again, I love meeting the people that I that I get connected with through this. And I'm so really, really thrilled that you're that you're with us today. So to start us off, can you share your Why? Why do you keep persevering and doing this work, and how you keep yourself motivated day after day to tell the stories that you do and engage with so many different stakeholders across the world. How do you do that? Kind of blows my mind a little bit, because I don't even know why people listen to me half the time. But you know what your first kind of question, like, what's my why I'm going to kind of kind of take you back in time, because, like, I've been doing this work a long a while. I've been doing this work a long time, and another person asked me this question, who you may have heard of. His name is Dan Habib. And Dan Habib is a filmmaker with his son now, Sam Samuel, and is incredible. And one is, one was one of my early guiding lights in my career, because, as a new teacher, you know, we all learn inclusion is the right thing to do and include who's inclusion flow for? It's for everyone you know, like you hear all these, you know, these lines and and I'm going into this career, and I'm feeling good, and I'm like, Yeah, inclusion is for everybody. And then you get into the your first job, and you realize, wow, not everybody's here. And the part I think that was the hardest for me was, you know, I would ask, I would ask my colleagues, well, where are the kids with Down syndrome? Where are they? And people would be like, Oh, no, no, they're not here. And I'm like, but like, inclusion means everyone. And people would say, Yeah, we're inclusive to everyone who's here. And I'm like, I don't think that's how it works. Do you know.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
I meet, and I would get so frustrated. But the part that was even more frustrating than that response was that the people who were telling me this were not monsters, the people who were responding were lovely, well meaning people who really thought that they were doing the right thing, you know, and it's very hard when you're the only person that thinks something and all these lovely people around you think something different, you think you're the one that's off, right? This would be so much easier if everyone was a holes. Do you know what I mean? It'd be so much easier if there was a villain here. But there's no. Every person I've ever met in education is doing their best, every teacher, every support staff, every administrator, every parent, every student you know, like everyone is is doing their best. They're trying to navigate the system that wasn't designed to be inclusive. But like, I don't know any of this. All I know is that I'm a first year teacher, and I'm thinking one thing, but what's happening is this other thing, and it's not fitting together, but because I feel like I'm the one that's off, I do probably what every teacher does in their career, which is we close our door and we do the best we can with the kids that we have. And I did that. I did that for a while. I did that multiple times in my career,
Unknown Speaker 6:20
but I could never keep it closed. And so I kept starting. I started to kind of look out and just be like, Okay, well, who else is doing this work? Who can I learn from? Enter Dan Habib. So Dan Habib was an early guiding light that was like, hey, inclusion actually is for everyone. And he had this incredible TED talk called disabling segregation. About, you know, there was a story of his son, and it just it, just it. He has a demeanor about him, if you know, Dan, it's very calm and just like sensible. And so I'll never forget it. He was speaking at a conference in Vancouver, where I live, and so I, like, begged my supervisor. I'm like, please, I need to go to this conference. Like, I'm ready to quit this job. I need to go meet Dan. And so I do, and I go up to him, I'm like, Dan, and Babe, it's so nice to meet you. And I'm like, talking a mile a minute, like asking him all these questions, right? Because I think he has the answers. And he stops me, and he's like, Shelly, what? Why does this matter to you, like, in his way, you know, in his in his voice. If you know Genevieve, you know exactly.
Unknown Speaker 7:29
Why does this matter to you? And I'm like, What do you mean? Because I am not a calm and sensible person. I am, I am radical and loud. And I'm like, What do you mean? Dad, he's like, like, Why? Why is this your mountain? And I'm like, because it's the right thing to do. Dan, what do you mean? Like, because there's no other option. Dan, he's like, no, no, and I'm like, because it's the law dad. He's like, no, no. Those are why it's important to everyone. Why is this important to you? He's like, not everyone climbs this mountain, like, why is this your mountain? And I didn't have an answer other than the sound bites that you hear, right? And I think this is sometimes the problem is that I'll talk to people and you hear the sound bites. It's the law, it's the right thing to do. It's the right side of history. But not enough people actually, like, sit with it and be like, why does this matter beyond the law? Yeah, because it's more important than the law, yeah. And so I just was like, I walked away from that without an answer, and he said to me, and the last thing he said is, like, in order to do this work, you can't climb this mountain alone. People have to follow you. People have to go up with you. He's like, but no one's going to follow you if you don't know why you're climbing it. He's like, because not every day is easy, and on hard days, if you don't know your why you're not going to keep going. And I'm like, damn,
Unknown Speaker 8:54
this is why, this is why you make movies. So I left, I left that interaction really thinking about that, like, what? Because it was, it was getting to the point where, well, I had multiple moments in my career where I was like, I can't do this anymore. It's not like, no one's enough for this, right? And I started really reflecting on, why is this my mountain? Why is this the mountain that I will never stop climbing? Why is this the mountain I'm gonna die on. Why is this the mountain that I will go through storms for? Like, what is it? You know? And you know what? You know, what I thought of, you know, what came to mind after my reflection? It really, really, am waiting baby bread. What the Why? Come on, Shelly, what was I'm gonna tell you? Well, there was, there was a few moments that popped up, but the very first story that came to mind was when I was in grade three.
Unknown Speaker 9:49
Can I tell you the story? Yes, please. So when I was in grade three, so grade three, I grew up in Alberta, and grade three is when the provincial, kind of like the state.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
Last thing started, okay. And so I always kind of tell the joke that, you know, you can kind of get to grade three being cute and funny and like, it helps that you're white, you know, you kind of like, sneak through. And so I get to grade three, and all of a sudden I can't rely on that privilege anymore. And I'm having a hard time reading and a hard time writing. And when you have a hard time reading and hard time writing. Also, what often happens is you have a hard time regulating, and so I started to kind of get these like behaviors. Okay, so grade three is the year that I get diagnosed with having a learning disability, but no one tells you this. In the 80s, no one tells you that there's a reason why you're having a hard time. You just think something's wrong, right? And so there was this one particular day that I remember that I think so perfectly sums up
Unknown Speaker 10:53
my why. And this particular day was March 17. Do you know what? Why? That's an important day. It St Patrick's Day, yeah, that's the reason St Patrick's Day, yeah, so St Patrick's Day, grade three. Our schools overcrowded, so we're in a portable, okay, okay. Now I'm also in Alberta, and it's March, so there's snow,
Unknown Speaker 11:17
okay, but because we're in a portable, we're separate from the school. We have our own heating and cooling systems that never actually align to what you need. They're the opposite. So you learn to seal and to layer. Okay? And my teacher was very, very it was very important to her that all windows and doors were closed so that the temperature would be regulated, because we were nine and we don't know what we're doing. So on St Patrick's Day, I walk in and there is snow in the coat room, and I'm like, Oh, someone is in trouble. There's snow in the portable. And I walk around the corner, and I my stomach like jumps out of my body because the window is wide open right beside my desk. Oh, goodness, and I'm like, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. I didn't do it. And when you look closer at the classroom, every other desk was upside down, except for mine, oh, goodness, and covered in green footprints.
Unknown Speaker 12:15
Oh, because it wasn't me, it was the leprechauns. The leprechauns opened the window
Unknown Speaker 12:23
and turn our classroom upside down now, now that I'm an educator, like, bless this woman who, you know, know, like, let go of her, I need to seal the classroom anxiety. And was probably there all night flipping our classroom upside down so that we can have the best day of our St Patrick's Day lives, and I was, it was the only day I was popular because my desk helped them get in, of course, yeah. So I am just like, This is the greatest day of my life. Like, have I painted the picture you have completed? Okay, is lucky charms and rainbows and pots of loonies. Like, we are living our best nine year old lives. Okay? Now it's so vivid. Okay? It's so vivid. So I am just like, like, that sense of I belong here. I have a contribution, even if it's just for this day. You know what I mean? Like I wasn't a problem. I was a hero on September 17,
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19 that let the lip line, oh, my goodness, oh, my goodness. Like feel the feelings. Yeah. And then the door opens. Now, if you're ever a person, if you're listening to this, and you're ever a student that was pulled out, you know the sound that the door makes when they're coming for you. And I heard it, and I was like, not today. So I hide. I hide because I'm like, you are not taking me away from the best day of my life. So this woman comes in who's not the regular pull out. Woman,
Unknown Speaker 13:57
and so I'm like, even more pull out. Woman, okay, woman, so she comes in and she's looking at her flip book, and she's like, I'm here for Shelly Moore. And I'm like, she is absent. She won't be here all week. I'm so mad, and all my classmates totally threw me under the bus. They're like, she's hiding under the desk. And I'm like, You're all dead to me. So I have to put on my snow suit and go to the school. And I'm so I'm, I'm livid. So I mean, like, just imagine my state. I have now been removed from the greatest day of my life to now go with this person I don't know. Yeah, things that I don't want to do, you know what? I mean, like to do things that are not my strength and not, you know?
Unknown Speaker 14:41
And the the walk to the office work like it just doom and gloom. Like this is a story of so many kids, right?
Unknown Speaker 14:52
But I'm also a Leo, so I'm very stubborn. So we get to the room and she wants me to do a writing sample.
Unknown Speaker 15:00
I'm like, lady, have you lost your mind completely? Like, are you kidding me? I'm not gonna give you a writing sample. Like, come
Unknown Speaker 15:09
on, you're you can write a story about the leprechauns. I'm like, Oh, the ones that you just forced me to leave. Like, no. So I'm so mad. And I am like, I'm not doing nothing, you know? So now the behavior is starting to come, right? Yeah? Then she makes a big mistake. She goes, I have to go to the washroom. Oh, I want you to. Because the only strategies they give you in the 80s, if you can't write is, just think about it harder. Yeah, just think about it, yeah. But like, even today, like my mind is not linear, like writing linearly is, like, it just doesn't work for me at all. So
Unknown Speaker 15:43
just thinking about it isn't going to help, but whatever, I'm like, go to the washroom lady, so I can plan my escape and I find it. Now, the good news is that we had a rotary phone at home, and the phone on the table was also a rotary phone. So this was perfect. And in my defense, we teach nine year olds to do this when they're in trouble. So I think I did what many students or children would do if they were in trouble, they would call the police, maybe, and so, oh goodness, I I called 911 because I was in a room with a stranger, and I was like, she is trying to get me to do things that I don't want to do, and I can't get out, and there are no windows. And then the woman and nothing I said was a lie, like this was nothing, was a lie. So then the woman on the phone gets very serious, and I get very scared, and I hang up the phone, which then was not a good idea, because I remember sitting in that room and it was very quiet, and then it wasn't very quiet, and people were in a scurry around me.
Unknown Speaker 16:51
Someone called 911 from the school. I'm like, it wasn't me. It was a leprechaun.
Unknown Speaker 16:57
I got a stern talking to that day about the severity of trouble, but like, you know, it worked. I didn't have to write, yeah, you got out of that. And so it became this whole thing, and like that, that whole scenario of, you know, I feel like I belong, I feel like I celebrated. I'm aligned to my strengths. I'm ripped apart from the community to work on a deficit, and then I don't want to, and then the blame is put on me, because I have this challenging behavior that turns into a crisis, like that whole pattern followed me for my entire schooling career, and this is a funny story. They're not all funny, right? Many of them are very traumatic, and I just think to myself over and over, why is that the story and the narrative of so many kids? And I mean, I could sit here all day and tell you stories like that that follow that pattern, yeah, I belong. I'm ripped apart. I'm torn away to work on a deficit that I don't feel successful in and then I have behavior like that, right? There is my life. And in that whole story, it's always I'm the problem, yeah, and so when I come back to my why, and I know this is very convoluted and long, but when I come back to my why, it's that like, I'm very fortunate there are people throughout my schooling, career and life that made an effort to break that narrative and break that cycle for me, and I'm forever grateful for them. But there are so many kids and families that don't have people within the system who are doing that. And so, you know, when I think about this work and this mountain that we're climbing that I will never stop climbing. It's because, like, more
Unknown Speaker 18:43
and more kids are getting trapped in that and it is working like it is not, it is not helping anybody, and there's not enough people in the system who are consciously and intentionally trying to break that cycle. And so this place that I'm in right now where I'm so fortunate to work around the world with families and communities and school districts who, for some reason, want to listen to me, I will never stop talking about the importance of breaking that cycle. Because it wasn't until that cycle was broken that I started to really realize what I have to offer to this world, and I'm so grateful for that, and which is why I will never stop
Unknown Speaker 19:19
that that story tells so much, and you are so right. It tells a story of so many, so many children who go through fact that you tell it in the way that you do. That's why people hear you. It is it again. It just it speaks to so much, and you tell it so well, it gets people to be able to understand, because you know what happened in so many children's eyes, and the more times it happens, the less belonging you feel. To start, yeah, yeah. And it's just, and if you can't feel it, you won't understand it. And you talk, you talk about these people, right? These other people helped you through.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
Through it. And we know that many of the people who listen to us, I think, will also be some of those people who continue to keep climbing the mountain, like you're saying, who keep but
Unknown Speaker 20:14
they they kind of also get beaten down. And you sure have had many a times when that has happened, what keeps you going? Do you keep going back to your why? Or wouldn't I mean, that's part of it, for sure. I mean, I think, like, as an adult now, looking back, there was also a very significant moment where I realized that my strategy needed to change, because, like, as an educator, yeah, the first couple of years, I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe I'm one of few people who think this, and so I'll kind of do it on the side, in the shadows. But over time, you get confident, and you're like, No, this is not okay. I'm going to step up. But then you get sometimes, like, attacked and beaten down by many, many systems that are in place that are not designed. And so when you get kind of the pushback, your immediate response is to fight. And I did a lot of fighting, and it went on stress leaves for fighting, and I cried for fighting. And there got to be a point where I'm like, Is this even worth my well being, right? And then I had an incredible administrator who probably gave me the best advice of my life, but he's like, you know,
Unknown Speaker 21:31
he used the metaphor that you've they've probably heard of, but he told me he's like, you know, if you think about your initiative and your goal of inclusive education, which, and this is so important, and your why is clear. He's like, the why is clear to you, but you can't do this by yourself, and so you also have to figure out how you're going to move this forward with other people. And you can't just fight. You can't just fight like that's not a strategy, that's a that's a reaction. And so he he told me the metaphor about being a bus driver. Have you heard this one? He's like, I want you to imagine you're a bus driver. And he goes, you're driving your inclusion bus, and you're trying to get people on the bus. He's like, but you know, I've been watching you the last couple of years, and what your strategy is, you drive your bus, and if you see someone who's not on the bus, you stop the bus, pull over, and you chase them,
Unknown Speaker 22:23
and you fight with them, and you try and drag them on the bus. He's like, but like, every time you go off and chase someone, you're not driving anymore. And he's just like, leave them, leave them drive the bus. Just tell them to move out of the way and drive your bus. He's like, because the thing is, is that, like, busses are on routes, people will have another chance to get on, but if people are going to get on the bus, it's not because you dragged them or fought with them. It's because you showed them the route, you showed them how to do it. You made it safe, you made it friendly. There's karaoke, there's snacks like make the bus worth choosing. And when I started to really reflect on that, and you know, reflecting on my own experience of just being a teacher, not even inclusive educator, and understanding like there are significant and very real barriers to inclusion in the education system. And you know, when I really started to talk about inclusion with my colleagues, I don't think there was even, I don't ever think I actually had a conversation with someone who is fundamentally against inclusive education. They just they don't know how to get past the barriers. And it's easier to push back than it is to be vulnerable and to admit that, you know, they don't know what to do, especially as especially I was in high school, especially as grades get older, and so, you know, upon reflection, was probably really good advice, because if I can drive a bus and I can show people the route, and I can show people how to navigate the barriers and reduce the barriers and eliminate the barriers, and be okay with leaving some people behind, right Like the that strategy alone completely changed the trajectory of my work because I stopped fighting. I stopped fighting, and I became an inviter, and I said, Listen, I can't change your mind, but I can show you how to do it, and I can show you that it's easier, and if people can see that it's easier, it doesn't matter what you believe. So come, welcome, welcome, and the busses are growing. It's just hard to see sometimes because the busses are on the edges. Yeah, you know. And so that is what keeps me going, is when I'm feeling low, I'm like, I need to go. I need to get some more people on my bus. I need to find who's going love it. And so I what I'm hearing is the why, and go back to why, and I'm hearing this piece about keep inviting more people into it and show them how to do it, and hope that some of us, some of them, will join the bus and don't keep fighting it, fighting with them. Do.
Unknown Speaker 25:00
Make it happen. Keep showing people how it's done. When you're fighting, you're not driving and and my principal, his name is Lauren. He said, he did say too. He's like, you know, people would actually love to be on the bus. They're exhausted. They've been walking, walking, walking. They're so tired, but they don't know where the bus is going. They've never been on that bus before. Like, they they don't know it. So, like, he's like, where to go. Sometimes it's just not knowing. It frightens people and makes people go back and and hide in the place or shut the doors, and also classrooms, like you were saying. So one, I want to just say, Dan Habib, mentor Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 25:38
He love him completely. We'll be at our fall meeting. He'll be joining he and Samuel will be joining us to to show their ride ahead movies.
Unknown Speaker 25:48
Completely hear you with with that conversation. You know, one of the things that you said, not one a lot of what you said, is about showing people about some of the things that work so that they can make it, they can see it, and that can help make it easier. Because I think that is is key, right? I mean, people could say this is hard, yes, it's hard, but it's also, once you know it, it becomes easy, right?
Unknown Speaker 26:16
You talk about five guiding conditions, right, of how to build inclusive communities, both inside and outside of classrooms and schools. Can you share what these guiding conditions are so we can
Unknown Speaker 26:29
so the five guiding conditions came from my dissertation. I was doing a lit review for specifically. It started off specifically for inclusion for students with intellectual disabilities in secondary academic classrooms. But as universal design weasels its way into our lives in every possible premise, because it's amazing. Um, you realize that these conditions are so not limited, yeah, this one particular population and so as as happens in the disability research is that we realize that what works for one works for all, and often, if you can reach the students that are the hardest to get to, it's going to help way more than just the students who you're planning for, which is that, that foundational understanding of inclusion, but the five, yeah, so the five kind of guiding. I call them the five P's, okay, and they build on each other. I'm still trying to figure out a good graphic to kind of represent, because they're definitely not a checklist or a standalone
Unknown Speaker 27:30
you know, they're, they're kind of more like reflective pillars. But the very first one is the importance of presuming competence and potential. Mm, hmm, which the others kind of rely on. Without that understanding and that true belief that all kids can learn in any context, it's really going to affect the decisions that we make. That will, that will inform and influence the rest of the P's, right? So, for example, in my research, when I was looking at students with intellectual disabilities in academic secondary classrooms, well, it was very hard to find because students with intellectual disabilities and secondary classrooms, they're not enrolled in academic secondary classrooms, and so, you know, and so why aren't they there? That was a big question like, why is it so hard to find a student with an intellectual disability in a secondary academic class? Because it's believed that they won't get anything out of that context which which is a presuming competence problem, not a placement problem, right? And so the first P presuming competence and potential. It doesn't matter what the context is. Every child can learn something in any context, in any grade, in any subject area, and I have seen it, and I believe that to my core. And if we don't believe that, we can't do any of the others. And so the tricky thing about presuming competence, though, is that, like again, I've never met someone who just says straight up to my face, all kids can't learn. But it is one of those implicit biases that we hold that we don't even realize. Sometimes we hold because all we've known is that those kids can't, you know, like that's all we've grown seeing. And so it takes a little bit of belief and a little bit of trust. But once you see it, you can't unsee it. You know, that's the first one, presuming competence and potential. The second one is shocking. To be included, you have to be placed in an inclusive program, not even the program's not even the right word, an inclusive community. You know, you can't, you can't say you're inclusive if you're in some other location, in a different location, and when I say place, it kind of incorporates two pieces, like location is part of it, but it's also not just location alone, because there's a big misunderstanding that like it's just about existing, and this is not about it. There's some lovely conversations around rightful presence, and that's part of it, right? It's not just about an existence in a location. It's about
Unknown Speaker 29:55
presence within a place. And when we talk about place, we're also kind of really drawing on.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Um, indigenous pedagogy of community, and who you're with and what your responsibility is to that place. And so it's so much more than just location. I mean, that's part of it, but it's like, Who are you in that place, and who are you with in that place, and what's your responsibility to that place? And so, you know, that's really that second piece is, where are these how do we increase these places where kids feel like they belong. Not just, how do we increase the locations where they're enrolled? But you can already see there's tension there, because often definitions are, are they enrolled 80% of the time, right? Right? You can be enrolled for 100% of the time and not be included for any of that, right? And so it kind of expands that conversation a bit. It absolutely does it just, I just want to point out there that when you were talking about your first year of teaching, and you were talking asking that question about, where are the students for Down syndrome, yeah, you know, sometimes it's sometimes, that's the conversation that we still continue to have. So I love the fact that you're talking about, not only about where those students are, but also in that, in that space of where they are, how they feel present and are they? Are they present? Are they part of that community? I think that probably one of the, one of the, I think surprising barriers to inclusion sometimes, is that in a self contained and segregated setting, the location isn't inclusive, but kids feel, yeah, present, and they like they're part of a community, so the other parts of that place are there that they don't want to let go of, and then when they go into the inclusive location, they lose the community. And so that's why, like, I don't ever want to just say location or enrollment, because this isn't just about enrolling. This is about how do we create play, space communities, and I have to, and I have to, and I have to be it's really important to me also that like this isn't new. This isn't new research like place based planning is deeply embedded in indigenous pedagogy. Like this is about also acknowledging knowledges and worldviews that have existed way before. Yeah, 2024 inclusive research, right? And so, like, this isn't something that's new. This is something that's foundational, that, like, we're catching up on and understanding that location and time. And so there's a quote that I say that I sometimes get misquoted on, but like, I would rather a student be meaningfully and purposefully placed in an inclusive classroom for five minutes than to be non purposefully integrated for six hours, right? And it's not about the minutes. It's about how are we increasing those placements over time so that students have that sense of purpose? And because that's the next P, yeah, because you have a place, but also, what's your purpose,
Unknown Speaker 32:46
responsibility to the community, what's your contribution to the community? And so that's and so that's another P. It's looking at, okay, place is part of it, but also who you are as part of it. And then so we have presuming competence, place, purpose, peers, because that is where you are, who you are and who you're with. Those come together to create place based planning. And then the fifth P is my favorite P, and that is planning for all, and that's moving away from kind of like, accommodate, accommodating individuals within, within a homogeneous group, to how are we planning for the diversity of all students that includes disability, but also includes all of the, you know, unique identities that students have and and I think sometimes that is one of the biggest barriers, because historically, educators haven't been taught to do that, and so it's, it's, there's, there's barriers to all five of them. But I think having those as pillars has been really helpful, both as a classroom level, a school level, a community level, to say, okay, because everywhere I go, there's strengths in in 123, or all of those areas. But it's also like, Okay, well, what's next then, right? What's the next pillar we can work towards? I think the the piece that you said about the the last p right, the planning for all
Unknown Speaker 34:10
that. It's interesting that how, in, in teacher education, in other places that we talk about, and you were also talking about the the research around planning, know about community, right? That has been in existence for so long
Unknown Speaker 34:27
that it's it's interesting that how in teacher education we are still we might be talking about this in different course, works in different places, but we don't seem to be coming together. And teachers don't leave with that idea still of how to do all of the P's that you've talked about,
Unknown Speaker 34:45
and you're right. In so many places, you see some of the P's coming up really well, and in some places that you feel like people are still struggling.
Unknown Speaker 34:54
Are there some? Just a couple of examples of places where you feel.
Unknown Speaker 35:00
Where you've worked, that when you when the community worked together to make something happen, that there was a solution that came up, that maybe you were surprised at too. I mean, so this isn't my story. This is a story of one of my good friends that she just posted on Instagram. But it's such a great example of this. So one of my very good friends, Katie Jamieson, she has twins, and one twin has autism and Down syndrome, and the other one is neurotypical. And so she has this really unique perspective, because she has these two children who are navigating the exact same school system, the exact same school, but their journeys are completely different because their needs are so different, right? And so as a parent, she's like, It's infuriating, because, like in their family, they're they're equal and they get what they need, but in the school system, they're not equal, and they don't each get what they need. And so she has had to make a schooling change, and she has moved to this, this new school, and is having, so far, this really positive experience. But one thing that they did, and she was telling the story online, and I was like, this is exactly the five P's. So if you know a family who has a disabled child, one, one, very I mean, it's a ridiculous problem, but it's often a problem is school picture day, because we have these kids who have to go meet this person they've never met before. There's bright lights. It's a change in routine. But like this picture is also like, representative of their year. And so often the pictures that come back are not good photos, right? Like these, these kids are like, who are you? I don't want to smile. They're not, you know, like, and so it's kind of, it's another thing that families are often reminded of that like, oh, look, here's another bad school photo of my kid, right? And so Katie's telling the story. And so what this school did, what this school did that was different this year, is before any kid came into the gym to get their picture taken, they brought Kenzie in to meet the photographer. They brought kenzie's Brother in to model, how to take a picture and to play with the lights and to check in the mirror, you know. So it wasn't just a put her in the gym to get her photo, which would be a location thing, yeah, they actually said, you know, they actually like they showed her examples, you know. They created this place that had meaning for her and had purpose for her, that involved her brother, that involved her peers, she was able to watch for a little bit like it was a lot of saying, Okay, so here is a place that has a purpose. Now let's anticipate what we can do within this community to make this successful for Kenzie, and her picture is amazing, you know, like, and it didn't take, it wasn't it didn't take rocket science brain surgery to, like, come up with a narrative that would allow her to be successful in that place. But it was a perfect example of, you know, a location which would have been everyone lines up and gets their photo taken and leaves. Like, yes, check. The box is checked, but the goal isn't met, because the picture isn't going to hang on the wall. It's not going to be sent to the grandmas and the aunts and the uncles. But with an extra five minutes, we now have this opportunity to to make something really purposeful for someone and create a photo that is that families are proud of, right? That are there. It's something so simple that I don't think people even think about when they get their Oh, she forgot to brush her hair. Like, you know what? I mean? It's not. It's not. It's not about having messy hair or a crooked collar like, this is a stranger, shining flash, flashing lights at me like something else has to be thought about in order to make this and so I feel such a good story of, if we were to only stick with location and minutes, you're not going to get the goal. But if we think about it in terms of, here's a place and there's a purpose, and it's clear, how do we pull in the community to support this person. It didn't take any more resources to do, which is often the response I get. But as a result, the payoff was huge, because nothing had to be retrofit. You didn't have to. You know what I mean? There's no retakes, there's no all of these things. And it was such a simple story, but it was such a good example of this is so peace, and it is. It's an awesome story of all those five P's, and especially the planning is, and especially the planning for all, yeah, because they they plan, like you said, for five, five minutes of planning for all led for them to think about and think through what, what one child needed a.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
As opposed to the as opposed to another. And I mean, like, and I think, like, I wasn't there, and this wasn't for the story, but I'm enough picture days to know that, like, if there was, if they allowed Kenzie to say, why don't you watch a couple first? I guarantee you there would have been a couple of other kids who would have benefited from that, you know. And I think that's the part that we miss, is that, rather than seeing these kids as extra work. Like, what if we thought about them as, hey, this is what Kenzie needs. But is there other kids that we could also pull in that might need that too, that might need to meet the photographer first? Like, it's just so simple. It's so simple. And I just think, like, you know, and I appreciate that. Like, not everyone has that intuition, right? And I get that, and I don't think that that, I don't think that has to be the expectation, but I think just like the willingness to have the conversation, that there's going to be some barriers for kids that need to be eliminated. But my favorite quote is like, when the conditions are right, every every person, every student, can be successful, and the conditions are not on the kid, the conditions are on us. And so if we can just be vulnerable enough for a second to say, okay, what are we missing? Who can we talk to? Every one of our kids can be successful. And I believe that to my toes, whether it's a school photo or a grade level learning standard like and it might take a little bit longer for some kids. It might they might need a couple of different things, but it's, it's, there's no other option. You know, there isn't an option, the openness to learn, the willingness to put yourself out there, to say, Hey, I can't understand this, and to be able to think about wrong sometimes,
Unknown Speaker 41:38
and the idea that if you think through for one student, planning for all, right, that whole idea of, if you think through one that is going to impact more than one, it's going to impact all love, it, um, so
Unknown Speaker 41:54
those
Unknown Speaker 41:57
little snippets though, right? And go follow, and she's just an absolute gift and a storyteller, but she like, you know, like, and this is it. There's so there's so many resources about inclusion that are, that are very quantitative. They're not storytative. Is that a word,
Unknown Speaker 42:16
and it describes you. Storyative. Story is where you see this come to life, you know? And it's, did you just say storytative, though? Story, okay, we're going to go with this word, because you're right. People who are able to tell stories professionally, personally, you're able to make connections and and being able to learn from each other, right? I mean, it gives you that opportunity to make that happen before we before we end, because I know our times coming to a close, and I really can hear you all day, but we usually end with asking, and you're given so much important information. So you might be like, I don't know what else to tell people, but I know one piece of advice you've always wanted to give educators
Unknown Speaker 43:04
one piece of advice. It's never landed up that somebody gave us only one piece. But
Unknown Speaker 43:10
try it. You know what? This is probably the advice that I would have given myself as a new teacher, yeah? Which is like, especially like,
Unknown Speaker 43:20
I think if we are called to this profession with kids, and we want to do right by kids, and we want, you know, we want it. We want to. We want to do them well and better often than we've had it, yeah, and we get this little spark, we get this little flame, and it drives us for a while, and then we realize that, like
Unknown Speaker 43:42
our Spark is being is being doused by water in every angle. Um, I think if I were to kind of go back and give myself advice, it would just be like to protect, to protect that, that flame. Um, because there's so many people who have just over time, have just been crushed by the education system as students and as teachers and as parents, that we have lost our flame so long ago. And I think, you know, I don't, and I don't think I realized how precious that was, because if you have that, that's where your hope comes from, that's where your belief comes from, that this is possible. And if all of us held on to that and came together, we could change the system in our sleep. And, you know, it's not this. Like, wait, I said it already. Like, the system wasn't designed for any of this, right? Like, and we could look at as much research as you want, but like, educator, like, there's so many reasons why this can't happen. There's so many reasons, and people will tell you all the reasons why inclusive education can happen, but if you have a spark and a flame and a belief that it's possible, none of those reasons matter, because you'll hold on to the one reason why it can and that is what's gonna that's what's gonna get you through this career and without it, it's so easy to lose that and start to get really good at practices that you realize you.
Unknown Speaker 45:00
Don't believe in and that's where I found myself too many times. So if I were to go back in time and tell myself one thing would be to protect that spark at all costs, protect that protect that flame, protect that is worth living in. This is going to get it's going to the impact of that flame, and it'll allow you to be able to bring more people onto your bus, protect that fleet. Show people what you
Unknown Speaker 45:27
that this is possible because it absolutely is. I love it.
Unknown Speaker 45:31
Bring more people to the bus. People, come on.
Unknown Speaker 45:34
Get on the bus, people and protect your flames. Thank you for joining us today to share your learnings and amazing, amazing experiences and your stories. Love it. We know that our learners will our listeners will learn from this reflect on their own practices and support they provide to school communities and consider how they might further explore the guiding conditions that you shared and how they might go about implementing practices that support developing more inclusive communities. We look forward to hearing from all of you our listeners, on how our conversation with Dr Moore connected with you, how you might consider sharing this with your your own communities, and the changes you may consider as you always we will have zoom meetings and access to connected resources on our website, urban collaborative.org Please reach out with topics and themes you would like us to share additional resources on and as always, we thank Keith Jones of crip hop for providing the Music. Thank you and thank you, Shelly, thank you.
Unknown Speaker 46:42
Applause.